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 Post subject: 50Hz Monitors for MiniMig
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:15 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:19 am
Posts: 104
Hi.

Monitor Models change from day to day, and it is hard to find one for sale which is recommended on a forum just weeks before.
So I was thinking about maybe getting a LED Monitor from Samsung which has a TV Tuner built in. Is is a 24" monitor and it looks very sleek. However, I want it to sync down to 50Hz. I am wondering:

Does Monitors with TV Tuners inside sync at 50Hz ? Is the built in TV Tuner a "safe bet" for us when trying to find a decent monitor that copes with 50Hz vertical sync ? Or does the Tuner inside spit out 60Hz to the lcd-panel even though I feed it with 50Hz signal from e.g a PSX ?

This quest for the holy grail...er..I mean....Holy 50Hz LCD/LED monitor is killing me :-)
I thought of maybe going to the megastore with my MiniMig and just test one monitor after the other ...but that's almost too nerdy ;)


Espen


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 Post subject: Re: 50Hz Monitors for MiniMig
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 10:33 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1566
Location: .de
Vertical sync rate dont depend on available video input type but only depend on used firmware.
VGA standard start at 56Hz refresh rate and most monitor and lcd-tv just support that at lower limit, no matter if the same device also support 50Hz Scart or s-video input.
(DVI/HDMI video input "force" screen to sync at incomming refresh rate. LCD/TFT panel always has its own internal refresh cycle)

You may have luck and this screen works even at 50Hz refresh rate at VGA video input. If not, please make sure it is possible to return this screen to the dealer! Saturn usually dont care about that but many other (smaler) dealer and discounter dont do this until the device has any technical trouble that dont match with its user manual.

If possible take Minimig with in a pocket (remember to tell them at doorway entrance!) and connect it to the desired screen. Atelco normally dont have any problem with such requests :)

Best results to me is Samsung TFT PC monitor screen. But same Samsung LCD TV dont take 50Ht at its VGA input plug!

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 Post subject: Re: 50Hz Monitors for MiniMig
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 11:23 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:19 am
Posts: 104
Yep, we have a bunch of those dealers who will take the goods back after 30 days of use "no questions asked". So that is a relief :) But after 10-12 returns, they might start to wonder ;)

So if I get you right: Even though a LCD MOnitor which has a TV Tuner internally will still output to e.g. 56Hz or 60Hz to the LCD panel itself EVEN though you feed it with 50Hz from e.g. a C64 ? If this is the case, I presume the scrolling will look a little bad. Am I right ?

So to sum it up: I need to find a LCD/LED Monitor which:

a) Syncs the 50Hz signal from my MiniMig/Replay board
b) Stretches it out to fill the whole screen (preferably)

What I often see, is that even if I find a LCD monitor that can show the 50Hz signal, the OSD is not accessible as it is not a "true" resolution which I feed it.

I know a 4:3 monitor will work best to prevent the aspect situation when image is stretched to 16:9, but I hope that the one I find has the option to choose to show with "black borders".

Fujitsu Siemens 19" LCD and BenQ 24" which I tested with DOES show 50Hz, BUT the bottom part (ca 20%) of the image is somewhere "under" the visible area of the screen and cannot be seen.


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 Post subject: Re: 50Hz Monitors for MiniMig
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 4:11 pm 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1566
Location: .de
In general all oldskool-scrolling looks uggly on modern LCD/TFT/Plasma screen. It varied a bit betrwwn panel manufacturer and quality but there always is "ghosting" to see. I guess this whole technique need redesign. And it dont matter what internal refresh rate this panel use. Maybe if it provide 1-2ms, the optical image draging is not that intense.

More importand is the mentioned VGA input scan rate.
Most display firmware just start sync at 56Hz and higher. In this case 50Hz will not be detected and you may see a "no signal" message on screen.

Using Scart input, the same firmware and panel "suddenly" provide a 50Hz refresh rate because Scart is mostly used in Europe where PAL 50Hz is standard. S-video input may varry and could also only support 60Hz in some country. For Europe there also is 50Hz PAL working.

If the screen support 50Hz even via VGA input, the screen fit sometimes is a problem. AutoSync dont work in all case and one has to adjust picture size and position manualy.

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 Post subject: Re: 50Hz Monitors for MiniMig
PostPosted: Wed Apr 06, 2011 9:09 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 10:51 pm
Posts: 478
Why it MUST be a monitor, epskog? For my Amiga-600, which i purchased some months ago on ebay, i bought me a LCD-TV from ALDI, it`s the type "TEVION TV 15610 DVD" for EUR 170,--. All of my other Amiga-500 has their own Commodore-Monitors (C-64 Modells), then i thought for this Amiga-600 i will buy something else. So i choose a LCD-TV, which had a good price at this moment from ALDI, and i was NOT dissapointed.

It`s a LCD-TV in 16:9 Format with a DVD-Player inside (which is also very good when putting it for camping) and many different possibilities to connect components to it (PC, Consoles, Video, other DVD-Players, old Computers), because it has a lot of connector-sockets (VGA, Video, S-Video, HDMI, YPBPR). It works without a problem and scrolling is totaly smooth with Amiga, C-64 or other older Consoles.

Zooming in 2 modes is also possible and switching to 4:3 picture-format also, then the picture is a little bit small, but it`s still okay (i don`t like stretched picture). Also good - it saves different video-configurations for the connected components, so its possible to use a sharp picture for watching TV or DVD and use a much smoother settings for connected retro-consoles or computers.

When watching DVD or TV with it, the pic-quality is really good for this price-class, so i am satisfied with this and if i want, it`s also possible to connect it to PC, but i don`t tried this until now. I knew before, that many new monitors makes problems with older components or even with the minimig, mostly because of the 50Hz. My Minimig i use with a Scart-Cable on my big tube-television.


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 Post subject: Re: 50Hz Monitors for MiniMig
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 9:00 am 
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Posts: 104
@Boing: I think I will buy a LED Monitor from Samsung at 22 or 24 inch which has FullHD with HDMI/DVI/VGA inputs along with the ordinary svideo/component/scart inputs for connecting retro-gadgets. This will cover most of my needs.

@AW72: I am also thinking about this -- but I will have to stick to just ONE large screen as I do not want any old CRTs on my desk, nor do I want one LCD for each machine. So what I want is one big LED/LCD monitor that can work with my Mac with a big resolution aswell as my Replay board. So the thing is that a lcd monitor with a TV tuner like you mention is a good choice as long as the screen can handle large resolutions...which they often don't.


But my biggest "fear" when I get a LCD/LED Monitor which has TV capabilities is that it accepts 50Hz inputs from my Amiga/replay BUT that it scales the image up to 60Hz internally and provides this to the display itself so that it becomes unsmooth scrolling.


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 Post subject: Re: 50Hz Monitors for MiniMig
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:07 am 
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Joined: Mon Dec 01, 2008 9:58 pm
Posts: 1566
Location: .de
As long as the screen offer a Scart input, you will have a smooth scrolling with all 50Hz picture source. No matter what internal refresh rate of the panel!
Else any normal DVD or TV video would look non-smooth too.

For Minimig the Scart input need to be RGB capable!

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 Post subject: Re: 50Hz Monitors for MiniMig
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 11:48 am 
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Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:19 am
Posts: 104
Ok. Good to hear that about the smooth scrolling.
Allright, I think I have found a LED Monitor which has DVB-T Tuner and the usual analog inputs along with a VGA slot. So this looks to me
as a good choice: http://www.komplett.no/k/ki.aspx?sku=604613

It is quite cheap, it looks good and it has internal PSU (yessss......less wires and powerbricks..ehhe). Plus, it looks to me that is has the usual mode-changes to choose 4:3, zoom, panaorama and all those modes to get "squared" amiga display instead of "stretched-by-default". AND...the price is quite good...just 1700NOK which is about $314 / €202 (vat included).

The Resolution is 1920x1080 and with a VGA input on this, I can use it with the mac aswell as a "normal" monitor for desktop-use. I would of course have loved 1920x1200 but 1080 will be ok too :) And for this price, I will not argue. I know the samsung 24" with equivalent specs (but twice the price) is probably MUCH better picture-wize, but...hell...this will do the job too :)

I will order it soon and leave a feedback here how it went ... :)


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 Post subject: Re: 50Hz Monitors for MiniMig
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:35 pm 
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Joined: Wed May 27, 2009 10:51 pm
Posts: 478
When i search in the Internet for new monitors which can handle 50Hz, nearly all the time the Samsung Syncmaster Monitors are named, so i think nearly all of this Syncmaster-model-types can handle this mode. So when it must be a monitor instead of a LCD-TV, i think this is a good choice.

I would take my Minimig and other important machines, which you would like to run on this monitor, to the shop and try them before buying. Or just try them in the shop and then search in the internet if this monitor is cheaper somewhere else *lol*.

But to be really true, the picture runs best and looks best for Minimig and all other Retro-Consoles or Retro-Computers on a tube-television, in my opinion.


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 Post subject: Re: 50Hz Monitors for MiniMig
PostPosted: Thu Apr 07, 2011 12:46 pm 
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Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 8:19 am
Posts: 104
Yep. I know. Best is to use a good old CRT. I just don't want to have a 50 kilo and 50 cm deep unit on the desk :) I know it's a lame decision, but I need to keep the footprint small on the desk and then the LCD is a trade-off for me compared to a CRT.

Stupid Samsung homepages does not mention their vertical sync in the tech specs. Very annoying. I would really much ilke to use a Samsung LED monitor at 24" as they come quite cheap and the picture quality is very good. I will consder a Samsung monitor if it will accept 50Hz and gives me the chance of scaling to 4:3 aswell.


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